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Next: Ad-Aware SE
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External
Since: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 50
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(Msg. 16) Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Just 12 minutes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>comp>anti-virus (more info?)
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 22:01:02 -0500, Lord Turkey Cough <spamdump.DeleteThis@invalid.com> wrote:
> "David H. Lipman" <DLipman~nospam~@Verizon.Net> wrote in message
> news:m2rpj.31284$ds2.30990@trnddc05...
>> Using a NAT Router will mitigate the BOT/Worm threat as well as hacking
>> attempts.
>
> Do you really believe this? I think you are deluding yourself here.
Worms that spread by taking advantage of exploits in software listening to
tcp/udp ports are blocked by the router.
> I don't really see what protection your router is giving you.
> Would you care to explain how it protects you?
When you use a properly configured router, all incoming traffic is blocked,
unless it's in response to an outgoing packet. The router has to be configured,
to allow traffic for the ports where you do want incoming traffic, to be allowed.
For example, if you are running an http server, you would have to setup the
router to forward all data coming in to port 80, to forward it to the
computer with the server running.
Your web browser will still work, because it is initiating the connection,
by sending a tcp syn packet, that the router will allow responses to.
You'll still have to keep your software, that accesses the internet updated,
but you no longer have to worry about printer&file sharing, for example.
You can think of the nat router, as a hardware firewall, for incoming
traffic. Like the windows firewall, it does nothing to help with connections
established by software, on your computer.
Regards, Dave Hodgins
--
Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email.
(nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for
use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.) |
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External
Since: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 50
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(Msg. 17) Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Just 12 minutes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 23:22:11 -0500, Lord Turkey Cough <spamdump RemoveThis @invalid.com> wrote:
> However without some open ports you cannot use the internet.
This is not correct. Open ports are used by servers, to allow clients
to establish a connection. If you are not running any servers, that
you want to have accessible, from the internet, then you do not need
any open incoming ports. Incoming traffic will still be allowed, but
only when it is in response to outgoing traffic. For most home computers,
the only case where an open incoming port is usually needed, is for p2p
software.
Regards, Dave Hodgins
--
Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email.
(nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for
use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.) |
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External
Since: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 50
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(Msg. 18) Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Just 12 minutes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 23:30:07 -0500, Lord Turkey Cough <spamdump.DeleteThis@invalid.com> wrote:
>
> I have had my securirty tested and passed with flying colours, I don't
> use windows firewall I use another. I would sooner but my balls into
> the mouth of a rotweiller than use a windows product for security.
> And no I am not into beatiality.
Lol. At least we agree on something  . I use linux, and only run M$
in a virtual box, where it's protected by the linux firewall.
> AS far as I can see a router offers me nowt, infact I think relying on one
> for security is the height of folly.
It's another layer of security. Firewalls have been found to have security
holes, in the past. Using the router stops the packets from even hitting
your computer, unless they're coming from an infected computer connected
to the same router.
Regards, Dave Hodgins
--
Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email.
(nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for
use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.) >> Stay informed about: Just 12 minutes |
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External
Since: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 50
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(Msg. 19) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:38 am
Post subject: Re: Just 12 minutes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 01:04:30 -0500, Lord Turkey Cough <spamdump.DeleteThis@invalid.com> wrote:
>>For most home computers,
>> the only case where an open incoming port is usually needed, is for p2p
>> software.
>
> Exactly. Any your firewall will take care of that.
Having a nat router is an extra layer of security. If your firewall has an
exploit, the router can protect it. If the router has an exploit, the firewall
will protect your computer.
>> Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email.
>> (nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for
>> use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.)
>
> Doesn't yur NAT router take care of that :O)
Heh. heh. The swen email worm made me do that, as it was filling my inbox at
my isp in less than two hours, till I started running my computer 24/7 with a
filter to id and delete the worms, without having to download them. I couldn't
download them as fast at they were arriving at my isp, at the time. Prior to
that I did not filter email at all, and used the arriving spam and viruses to
analyze them and report back to the senders isp. While the swen email worm
is very rare now, I figure it's only a matter of time till another worm uses
a similar method.
Regards, Dave Hodgins
--
Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email.
(nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for
use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.) >> Stay informed about: Just 12 minutes |
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External
Since: Feb 06, 2008
Posts: 13
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(Msg. 20) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:01 am
Post subject: Re: Just 12 minutes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"David H. Lipman" <DLipman~nospam~@Verizon.Net> wrote in message
news:m2rpj.31284$ds2.30990@trnddc05...
> From: "Daave" <dcwashNOSPAM.TakeThisOut@myrealboxXYZ.invalid>
>
> | I'm sure many here are very familiar with the notion that there is "a
> | 50% chance of being infected by an internet worm in just 12 minutes of
> | being online using an unprotected, unpatched Windows PC." As many of you
> | know, this is a direct quote from a Sophos press release from July 1,
> | 2005:
> |
> |
> http://www.sophos.com/pressoffice/news/articles/2005/07/pr_uk_midyearr...dup2005
> |
> | Sophos got a lot of mileage from this press release. An interesting side
> | effect I've seen is newsgroup posts warning users of the dangers of
> | going online to patch an older, pre-SP2 version of Windows XP because it
> | will take more than 12 minutes, leaving many vulnerable to malware
> | infestation. Obviously, there are ways around this: download the entire
> | service pack (using another PC) and burning a disk so that SP2 may be
> | applied while the PC is offline and safe. Or users may get the
> | equivalent disk from Microsoft for a nominal fee.
> |
> | But this begs the question: For the majority of people who choose to
> | obtain SP2 through automatic updates, *how* vulnerable are they exactly?
> | Of course, for those running SP1 or Gold, Messenger Service (which is on
> | by default) can be manually turned off. But again, for the majority of
> | people who have performed a clean installation without knowing to turn
> | off specific services, how vulnerable are their PCs?
> |
> | I'm sure the study referenced in the press release talks about averages
> | and includes people who don't patch their systems and don't practice
> | other modes of safe hex. Messenger spam arriving informing a gullible
> | person that they have spyware or registry problems has happened many,
> | many times. People clicking on links in e-mails when they shouldn't be
> | doing so... well, you get the picture.
> |
> | But what about a PC on the Internet that is not doing anything but
> | sitting there? Without the benefit of a firewall, hackers/bots can
> | attempt to do damage, for sure. But without any user input, is this
> | 12-minute figure reasonable? Or is it more a case of marketing hype?
> | Specifically, what specifically can happen to an unpatched system,
> | assuming there is no user input (clicking on links, OK buttons in pop-up
> | windows, etc.)? Are there worms that can do damage this way, and if so,
> | what are they and what is the mechanism by which they infect a PC? How
> | common is real-time hacking in this sort of situation?
> |
>
> Using a NAT Router will mitigate the BOT/Worm threat as well as hacking
> attempts.
Do you really believe this? I think you are deluding yourself here.
I don't really see what protection your router is giving you.
Would you care to explain how it protects you?
Explaintions such as "Well I am using a NAT router" don't really qualify as
the
arguement is kind of circular."
>
> --
> Dave
> http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
> Multi-AV - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp
>
> >> Stay informed about: Just 12 minutes |
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External
Since: Feb 06, 2008
Posts: 13
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(Msg. 21) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:05 am
Post subject: Re: Just 12 minutes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Ant" <not RemoveThis @home.today> wrote in message
news:3cadnVXjf6aZ9jvanZ2dnUVZ8smgnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
> "Daave" wrote:
>
>> but I'm just curious if someone who has an ordinary modem and is not
>> running a software firewall, etc. will be in danger of being infected
>> within 12 minutes as is commonly believed,
>
> I am that person! When the Swen worm first appeared some years ago I
> was infected within seconds of going online. I didn't know about it or
> the patch that had been released because I'd been abroad for a while
> and hadn't been keeping the system up to date.
>
>> and if so, what is the mechanism by which this can happen?
>
> It happens because in Windows NT, by default, there are certain
> network services running with ports open listening for incoming
> traffic. This is a very bad idea but as we know, Microsoft have
> tended to put ease of use ahead of security. Any vulnerabilities
> (bugs) in those services may be exploitable so that code is injected
> and run. There are machines (bots) constantly scanning IP address
> ranges looking for such opportunities.
>
> I have since closed all ports so that even without a firewall I am no
> longer open to these kind of attacks.
LOL yes as long as your are not connected to the internet which kind of
defeats the object.
Why not get well protected and unplug your modem etc???
>
>> In my scenario, the PC is just sitting idle. Or sitting at Windows
>> Update.
>
> I also don't allow automatic updates; in fact I haven't updated past
> Win2k SP2 (no longer supported). However, I wouldn't advise this for
> most people.
You have gazillions of other software acessing the interenet when you
you do use the internet that can be infected.
You are just bocking one hole in a culander. Rather pointless.
>
> >> Stay informed about: Just 12 minutes |
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External
Since: Jul 04, 2003
Posts: 1719
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(Msg. 22) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:11 am
Post subject: Re: Just 12 minutes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Feb 06, 2008
Posts: 13
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(Msg. 23) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:15 am
Post subject: Re: Just 12 minutes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"David H. Lipman" <DLipman~nospam~@Verizon.Net> wrote in message
news:ez9qj.18390$hF2.16691@trnddc02...
> From: "Lord Turkey Cough" <spamdump.DeleteThis@invalid.com>
>
>
> |
> | Do you really believe this? I think you are deluding yourself here.
> | I don't really see what protection your router is giving you.
> | Would you care to explain how it protects you?
> | Explaintions such as "Well I am using a NAT router" don't really qualify
> as
> | the arguement is kind of circular."
> |
>
> My IP address is in my reply.
> Prove otherwise.
Thats like saying your house is burgal proof and inviting me to burgal
it to prove you wrong.
My IP address has been in my reply for the last ten years, and I have
not suffered any infections really, one or two possible incidents but
these were no doubt caused by my careless use of the internet or were
merely over zealous antivirus software reports.
I am sure there are many people using NAT routers who had serious problems
with viruses. I certaintly have not and certaintly nothting that a NAT
router would have
prevented. I can guarantee you that.
But anyway you have avoided the question as to how you are
protected, asking me to prove you are not an adaquate answer, it
suggests you don't know.
All you router is doing is routing the traffic to your computer, it has no
more
idea whether that traffic is a 'virus' or not.
Anyway there are a lot of 12 minutes in the time I have been connected to
to the interenet, and I don't appear to have acquired my yearly alloction
of 43,000 viruses, in fact I should be up to the 1/2 million mark my now!!
Or maybe I have!! Maybe that is why my hard drive is nearly full :O)
>
> --
> Dave
> http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
> Multi-AV - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp
>
> >> Stay informed about: Just 12 minutes |
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External
Since: Jul 04, 2003
Posts: 1719
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(Msg. 24) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:15 am
Post subject: Re: Just 12 minutes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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From: "Lord Turkey Cough" <spamdump.RemoveThis@invalid.com>
>> My IP address is in my reply.
>> Prove otherwise.
|
| Thats like saying your house is burgal proof and inviting me to burgal
| it to prove you wrong.
|
| My IP address has been in my reply for the last ten years, and I have
| not suffered any infections really, one or two possible incidents but
| these were no doubt caused by my careless use of the internet or were
| merely over zealous antivirus software reports.
| I am sure there are many people using NAT routers who had serious problems
| with viruses. I certaintly have not and certaintly nothting that a NAT
| router would have
| prevented. I can guarantee you that.
|
| But anyway you have avoided the question as to how you are
| protected, asking me to prove you are not an adaquate answer, it
| suggests you don't know.
|
| All you router is doing is routing the traffic to your computer, it has no
| more
| idea whether that traffic is a 'virus' or not.
|
| Anyway there are a lot of 12 minutes in the time I have been connected to
| to the interenet, and I don't appear to have acquired my yearly alloction
| of 43,000 viruses, in fact I should be up to the 1/2 million mark my now!!
| Or maybe I have!! Maybe that is why my hard drive is nearly full :O)
|
I have posted numerous times about the use of FireWall appliance and NAT Routers. Find and
read them.
If you probe my IP you won't find out anything.
Why ?
Because the Router has ports specifically blocked and only on invites from the LAN side will
WAN access get through the WAN/LAN barrier. The Routers enforcement through simplistic
FireWall constructs and Network Address Translation is far superior then attempting to close
ports on nodes on the LAN side.
I look forward to seeing activity from NTL Internet Ltd.
--
Dave
http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
Multi-AV - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp >> Stay informed about: Just 12 minutes |
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External
Since: Feb 06, 2008
Posts: 13
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(Msg. 25) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:15 am
Post subject: Re: Just 12 minutes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"David H. Lipman" <DLipman~nospam~@Verizon.Net> wrote in message
news:xbaqj.20111$Ou1.15146@trnddc07...
> From: "Lord Turkey Cough" <spamdump DeleteThis @invalid.com>
>
>
>>> My IP address is in my reply.
>>> Prove otherwise.
> |
> | Thats like saying your house is burgal proof and inviting me to burgal
> | it to prove you wrong.
> |
> | My IP address has been in my reply for the last ten years, and I have
> | not suffered any infections really, one or two possible incidents but
> | these were no doubt caused by my careless use of the internet or were
> | merely over zealous antivirus software reports.
> | I am sure there are many people using NAT routers who had serious
> problems
> | with viruses. I certaintly have not and certaintly nothting that a NAT
> | router would have
> | prevented. I can guarantee you that.
> |
> | But anyway you have avoided the question as to how you are
> | protected, asking me to prove you are not an adaquate answer, it
> | suggests you don't know.
> |
> | All you router is doing is routing the traffic to your computer, it has
> no
> | more
> | idea whether that traffic is a 'virus' or not.
> |
> | Anyway there are a lot of 12 minutes in the time I have been connected
> to
> | to the interenet, and I don't appear to have acquired my yearly
> alloction
> | of 43,000 viruses, in fact I should be up to the 1/2 million mark my
> now!!
> | Or maybe I have!! Maybe that is why my hard drive is nearly full :O)
> |
>
> I have posted numerous times about the use of FireWall appliance and NAT
> Routers. Find and
> read them.
>
> If you probe my IP you won't find out anything.
> Why ?
Computer off line due to a virus infection?
> Because the Router has ports specifically blocked
However without some open ports you cannot use the internet.
> and only on invites from the LAN side will
> WAN access get through the WAN/LAN barrier. The Routers enforcement
> through simplistic
> FireWall constructs and Network Address Translation is far superior then
> attempting to close
> ports on nodes on the LAN side.
No it is effecively the same thing.
>
> I look forward to seeing activity from NTL Internet Ltd.
Either that or an annomouuus proxy anyway.
Anyway I am not a hacker so it is pointless asking me to hack you,
so if you want to be tested you better ask more widely, prehaps in a
'hackers'
group and see how you get on.
Or you could go to one of many sites which will test you open ports.
I have just had all my 'ports tested' and I passed with flying colours.
Perhaps you would like to give it a try too???
https://www.grc.com/x/ne.dll?bh0bkyd2
So..... what extra is a router going to offer me? (Apart from extra cost).
Of course you need to test you router is secure too ;O)
Some what more difficult me thinks :O|
>
> --
> Dave
> http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
> Multi-AV - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp
>
> >> Stay informed about: Just 12 minutes |
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External
Since: Feb 06, 2008
Posts: 13
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(Msg. 26) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:15 am
Post subject: Re: Just 12 minutes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins.TakeThisOut@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in message
news:op.t523gnnaa3w0dx@hodgins.homeip.net...
> On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 22:01:02 -0500, Lord Turkey Cough
> <spamdump.TakeThisOut@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> "David H. Lipman" <DLipman~nospam~@Verizon.Net> wrote in message
>> news:m2rpj.31284$ds2.30990@trnddc05...
>>> Using a NAT Router will mitigate the BOT/Worm threat as well as hacking
>>> attempts.
>>
>> Do you really believe this? I think you are deluding yourself here.
>
> Worms that spread by taking advantage of exploits in software listening to
> tcp/udp ports are blocked by the router.
>
>> I don't really see what protection your router is giving you.
>> Would you care to explain how it protects you?
>
> When you use a properly configured router, all incoming traffic is
> blocked,
> unless it's in response to an outgoing packet.
Ah so its the same as my computer then!! Interestinig!!
> The router has to be configured,
> to allow traffic for the ports where you do want incoming traffic, to be
> allowed.
Bit like my comp :O)
>
> For example, if you are running an http server, you would have to setup
> the
> router to forward all data coming in to port 80, to forward it to the
> computer with the server running.
>
> Your web browser will still work, because it is initiating the connection,
> by sending a tcp syn packet, that the router will allow responses to.
>
> You'll still have to keep your software, that accesses the internet
> updated,
> but you no longer have to worry about printer&file sharing, for example.
>
> You can think of the nat router, as a hardware firewall, for incoming
> traffic. Like the windows firewall, it does nothing to help with
> connections
> established by software, on your computer.
I have had my securirty tested and passed with flying colours, I don't
use windows firewall I use another. I would sooner but my balls into
the mouth of a rotweiller than use a windows product for security.
And no I am not into beatiality.
AS far as I can see a router offers me nowt, infact I think relying on one
for security is the height of folly.
>
> Regards, Dave Hodgins
>
> --
> Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email.
> (nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for
> use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.) >> Stay informed about: Just 12 minutes |
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External
Since: Feb 06, 2008
Posts: 13
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(Msg. 27) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:15 am
Post subject: Re: Just 12 minutes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins.TakeThisOut@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in message
news:op.t525rbana3w0dx@hodgins.homeip.net...
> On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 23:22:11 -0500, Lord Turkey Cough
> <spamdump.TakeThisOut@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> However without some open ports you cannot use the internet.
>
> This is not correct.
Yes it is unless you just want to send data, which is rather pointless
inmost instances.
> Open ports are used by servers, to allow clients
> to establish a connection.
And by other programs to communicate.
>If you are not running any servers, that
> you want to have accessible, from the internet, then you do not need
> any open incoming ports.
Except for programs which need to accept data.
>Incoming traffic will still be allowed, but
> only when it is in response to outgoing traffic.
Yes.....you're getting there....
>For most home computers,
> the only case where an open incoming port is usually needed, is for p2p
> software.
Exactly. Any your firewall will take care of that.
Unless it is a hardware router with an exploit in in which cannot be fixed
by an uupdate, such as NAT router
>
> Regards, Dave Hodgins
>
> --
> Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email.
> (nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for
> use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.)
Doesn't yur NAT router take care of that :O) >> Stay informed about: Just 12 minutes |
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External
Since: Jan 19, 2006
Posts: 282
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(Msg. 28) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:24 am
Post subject: Re: Just 12 minutes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 02:38:12 -0500, "David W. Hodgins"
<dwhodgins.RemoveThis@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>Heh. heh. The swen email worm made me do that, as it was filling my inbox at
>my isp in less than two hours, till I started running my computer 24/7 with a
>filter to id and delete the worms, without having to download them. I couldn't
>download them as fast at they were arriving at my isp, at the time.
It's ironic that the vx purists who used to post to acv thought
conciseness of code to be of real importance yet swen caused a major
headache not because of its exceptional coding but because of its
bulk.
I think a lot of people got email accounts with server side filtering
after that. Often at an extra cost
Jim. >> Stay informed about: Just 12 minutes |
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External
Since: Sep 24, 2006
Posts: 22
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(Msg. 29) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Just 12 minutes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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|
>>
>> Using a NAT Router will mitigate the BOT/Worm threat as well as hacking
>> attempts.
>
> Do you really believe this? I think you are deluding yourself here.
> I don't really see what protection your router is giving you.
> Would you care to explain how it protects you?
> Explaintions such as "Well I am using a NAT router" don't really qualify
> as the
> arguement is kind of circular."
>
In the context of the OP a NAT router will mitigate the threats. The
question was about exposing an unpatched version of XP directly to the
Internet. There are worms that will take advantage of a system in this
state. A NAT router is adequate to stop these threats while you download and
install the needed updates. If you plan on surfing to porn and warez sites
then probably nothing is adequate.
--
Kerry Brown >> Stay informed about: Just 12 minutes |
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External
Since: Jul 04, 2003
Posts: 1719
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(Msg. 30) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Just 12 minutes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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From: "Lord Turkey Cough" <spamdump.RemoveThis@invalid.com>
I stated...
"If you probe my IP you won't find out anything."
You eplied...
"Computer off line due to a virus infection?"
Not even close. It is because my Router is locked down, wob't respond to 'pings', Telnet,
TFTP or other atempts at communication. When you see the WAN address you can't see the
non-routable private address scheme of 192.168.x.y and the Router will NOT translate that
WAN to LAN address from the POV of the Internet.
Your conclusions in this thread are faulty to say the least and I am not going to hash and
rehash answers to try to convince you otherwise.
Please take the time to research this subject matter. If you do you will learn that due to
simplistic FireWall constructs found in NAT Routers and specifically Network address
Translation nodes from the POV of the Internet can not simply access nodes on the LAN side.
Additionally you will learn the software based FireWalls are placebos when compared to an PC
(even with open ports) that are behind a NAT Router or a Router with a full FireWall
implementation.
--
Dave
http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
Multi-AV - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp >> Stay informed about: Just 12 minutes |
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